Here's a fairly amusing set of posts (I think), but it does require a quick setup.
Here's the deal: there's a very strong Ultimate team called Nektar Haagen that played at the Kaimana Klassik tournament in Hawaii for several years, going undefeated. They're a fun group, and I like them. But the tournament directors thought that having one elite-level team attending this mostly non-elite tournament wasn't really fair, and they discussed keeping the team out. In fact, for the 1996 tournament they excluded the team, but essentially the team attended anyway under a different name, circumventing the organizers' wishes. After that, the organizers re-thought it and decided to again allow the team to play. Here are some posts on the subject.
The first post is kinda serious, so skip ahead if you just want the amusement value.
Author: Phillip N Price
Email: pnprice@lbl.gov
Date: 1996/11/27
Forums:rec.sport.disc
mattrubes@aol.com wrote:
>
> One complaint: What is up with trying to oust Nektar two years in a row ?
> Is the team too stacked ? Look at the Stanford alums, Cornell and the
> Tour of two years back. That team had Daddy, EO, Frankie, Brent Russell
> and Cribber fer chrissakes.
OK, let's get one thing clear: the tournament organizers can invite
whoever they damn well please. This isn't
Sectionals/Regionals/Nationals where fairness dictates that all
qualified teams get to go. Just because, two years ago, the organizers
let such-and-such a team play, doesn't mean they have to continue that
precedent forever.
The tournament organizers are perhaps the only ones who know for sure,
but I thought that the idea last year was NOT to let totally stacked
teams like The Tour or Nektar Haagen play [for those of you who don't
know, Nektar is made up of a bunch of Double Happiness guys, plus a
range of players from the upper echelon of S.F. Bay-area guys. The only
exception who comes to mind is some guy named Matthew Ruby or something,
who they presumably let tag along to defuse criticism: "You guys are
stacked", "No we aren't, see, we have HIM."] When it was just Nektar,
that was OK. But when it looked like the tournament might attract
increasing numbers of elite teams, at the exclusion of the traditional
second-tier teams (like mine), the organizers decided to put a lid on
things. At least, that's the way I heard it.
[Last year, this attempt was subverted by someone who submitted a bid
under the name of a long-standing second-tier Bay Area team called Spin
Doctors when in fact the team was composed almost exclusively of Nektar
guys...plus two Spin Doctors players, one of whom got so little playing
time that he defected to another team on the second day.]
> Does Nektar have bad spirit ? I don't think so. There's a team-wide
> policy of NO calls, even stalls.
I never heard ANY complaints about Nektar's spirit...But last year they
did give up the "no calls" policy.
> I think that having a multi-year winner is an extra draw for a tournament.
You can think that if you like, and talk to the tournament organizers
about it. But (see the first sentence of this post) it really isn't for
you to say.
> have succeeded yet, and that's half the fun. Nektar is neither too
> serious for a fun tourney like the Kaimana or too stacked (there are
> plenty of other stacked teams there, too).
Nektar is way stacked compared to any other team that's appeared there.
I think it's great that Nektar has fun at the tournament and wants to go
back, but it does seem a little strange to me---like if DoG decided to start
going to Poultry Days, or something.
> Of course, it's possible that
> we actually got the bid this year, and i'm just too far out of the loop to
> know.
Indeed, I believe that is the case.
But even if it weren't, you'd STILL be wrong.
--Phil Price
===================
Author:mattrubes
Email: mattrubes@aol.com
Date:1996/12/05
Forums: rec.sport.disc
Okay, okay. Nektar got in. Mmm mmm this foot tastes good.
You'd never guess that this Phil Price character is actually on my winter
league team. Last time I cut dump for him on a high stall.
====================
Author: flash06
Email: flash06@aol.com
Date:1996/12/06
Forums:rec.sport.disc
Phil,
Thought I would clear some things up for those as misguided as yourself.
As a first-time Spin Doctor last year, I had a blast at the Kaimana
Klassik. It was clearly the best tourney I had been to, including Worlds
in Somerset and numerous Turkey Bowls and Ow-My-Knees, not that those are
anything to sneeze at. The tournament organizers did a wonderful job, and
now that I am done with the necessary butt-kissing, I want to address some
of your points.
First, how do you consider your team a second-tier team? From my
recollection, you won the initial Co-ed Nationals, placed second this year
at the same tourney (how you lost I cannot imagine?), and only lost to
Spin Nektar by 2 in the quarterfinals at Kaimana last year. And these are
only the tourneys I know of. You guys are awesome, pat yourselves on the
back. As a matter of fact, didn't you pick up long-time Nektar alum Bill
Layden, defending World-Club champion to play in Santa Rosa? Hmm, sounds
suspiciously like "stacking" to me.
As far as "abandoning" the no-calls policy, I believe, and correct me if I
am wrong, that we made one call in the course of 9 games last year. As a
matter of fact, I still have a concussion from the repeated elbows to the
head one of your teammates gave me last year. When I asked him if the
last one was a foul, he said, "Yeah", I agreed and your team took
possesion of the disc. As a matter of fact, these concussions seem to
have caused me to forget how Regionals went for my team this fall. Wierd.
Now as far as the way more stacked than other teams, and the Dog at
poultry comments, I believe there was a Cornell alumni team in the finals
last year sporting a number of notable non-cornell alums. Maybe we should
start calling ourselves Chico alumni or something? Would that allay your
fears as to us being to stacked? And btw, DoG attends the Clambake
regularly, one of the most entertaining tourneys on the East Coast, I
hear. Didn't hear the tourney directors complaining about them this year,
nor any of their competitors. Maybe we Nektar guys just need to start
being nice like those guys?
Flash
===============
Author: phil
Email:pnprice@lbl.gov
Date:1996/12/10
Forums:rec.sport.disc
Apologies if this gets posted to the newsgroup twice, my server is
acting up.
Actual, real points made below. Be patient.
mattrubes@aol.com wrote:
>
> Okay, okay. Nektar got in. Mmm mmm this foot tastes good.
> You'd never guess that this Phil Price character is actually on my
>winter league team. Last time I cut dump for him on a high stall.
I wish! If you ever do anything but hang behind the disc while your
defender poaches in the lane, it'll be the first time.
PO4.ANDREW.CMU.EDU wrote:
> First, how do you consider your team [Red Fish Blue Fish] a
> second-tier team? From my
> recollection, you won the initial Co-ed Nationals, placed second this
> year at the same tourney (how you lost I cannot imagine?), and only
> lost to Spin Nektar by 2 in the quarterfinals at Kaimana last year.
Thanks. You caught me, really I was just fishing for compliments. You
forgot to mention that we won Humboldt Harvest, too. As to how we lost
this year's Santa Rosa tourney (a.k.a Coed Nationals), more on that
below.
> As a matter of fact, didn't you pick up long-time Nektar alum Bill
> Layden, defending World-Club champion to play in Santa Rosa? Hmm,
> sounds suspiciously like "stacking" to me.
Actually, we were in need of women so we picked up Billy's girlfriend,
Rebecca. She insisted that we let Billy play. We tried to have him ride
the pine the whole tourney, but he whined so pitifully (you know how he
does) that we let him on in non-critical situations. He did manage to
touch the disc a few times, mostly by intercepting passes intended for
other teammates.
And thus, we lost coed Nationals. Since you asked.
>As far as "abandoning" the no-calls policy, I believe, and correct me
> if I am wrong, that we made one call in the course of 9 games last
> year.
I dunno, I only know about the game we played against you. We were
all set to go with our innovative "violations at will"
strategy---looking forward to hearing you guys stalling 8...9..10!
ummm....11...12---but in the VERY FIRST POINT, you guys called a
routine travel (as opposed to our pre-planned multi-step travel). We
whined in Layden-esque fashion (see above) and, suckers that you are,
you made no further calls.
>As a matter of fact, I still have a concussion from the repeated elbows
> to the head one of your teammates gave me last year.
That would be Mark "The Enforcer" Determan, former pro hockey player
before a bizarre career-ending accident involving an athletic
supporter (don't ask). It did look like there was contact on a
few of those throws, but let's face it, your teammates were making
piss-poor decisions and putting up some real garbage. You put up a
hospital pass, your receiver ends up in the hospital. At least, he
does if The Enforcer is around.
===================
OK, now the real point. Flash, I think you misunderstood my post. I
don't have any complaints about Nektar _at all_. A great team, a fun
team, I like many of the players on it and am pleased to have played
with some of them myself.
My point is, was, and always shall be, that _IF_ the tournament
organizers decided that you guys (and other all-star-type teams) were
too good for the tournament and they'd rather invite teams that AREN'T
36-0 over the past 4 years, that would be a reasonable decision. The
tournament organizers were taking it on the chin for supposedly
bumping Nektar (they didn't), and some people were saying that it was
wrong, in the sense of unfair or unethical, to bump a team just
because they were too good. I, on the other hand, think it's a _good_
thing if the tournament organizers regulate which teams they admit so
that the games are competitive. Exceptionally strong teams can play
in elite tournaments or A divisions of tournaments, where they can
pick on (or be picked on by) someone their own size. Kaimana attracts
a range of teams, but no truly elite ones, and IF the organizers
wanted to keep it that way I think it's their right.
Also, I have no problem with teams playing the best players they can
recruit (i.e. "stacking") in most tournaments, particularly those
intended to showcase elite teams---certainly recruiting good players is
an important part of every team's development! But I did think it
showed...let's say "lack of class"...to get around the wishes of the
tournament director by re-naming the team so they thought they were
getting Spin Doctors but in fact got Nektar yet again.
(And if DoG likes to go to clambake and crush everyone, I think that's a
little...odd...but, just as I said in my previous post, if they enjoy
themselves I don't have a problem with it.)
I was NOT saying that I think Nektar should or should not be excluded,
just trying to support the tournament organizers in WHATEVER decisions
they make. As you (Flash) noted, Kaimana is one of the best
tournaments around, and these organizers make it so, and I didn't like
seeing what I saw as unfair criticism of them. If you go back and read
my original post, I think you'll see that this was my intended
message.
Aloha.
--Phil Price